Romans 8 Deserves a Deep Dive

Courtney Doctor

Talking about kind of my past before I knew the Lord. And I said, I don’t I, you know, I’m kind of ashamed. I don’t want to talk about it. And he goes, Well, do you not believe Romans eight? One? He’s like a teenager at the time. And it was, it was life changing for me, that question. It was like, I do actually believe it. And you’re right. There’s freedom.

Melissa Kruger

Hi, friends. Welcome to the deep dish, a podcast from the gospel coalition where we love to have deep conversations about deep truths. I’m Melissa Kruger, and I’m here with my co host, Courtney doctor, and today we are thrilled to be joined by our friend trilla trillate new bell. We’re so glad to have you today for the spot for this discussion. Yeah,

Courtney Doctor

trillia, we really are so excited that you are here. And you guys probably know trillia already. You’ve seen her at some of our conferences, or maybe you’ve read one of her many, many books. There were so many things that we could have invited trillia to come on and talk about on the deep dish. But what we decided to do was to do a deep dive into one chapter of the Bible in the hopes that it will create in you a greater love of this incredibly beautiful passage Romans eight trillia has written an entire study on this chapter alone, called if God is for us, and that will be in the show notes, a link to that. It’s a phenomenal study, but we’re excited for this conversation. Trilia,

Trillia Newbell

thank you. I’m so excited to

Melissa Kruger

be here. I’m so excited because both of you, I have been both of your friends. You have been my friends while you were both working on Roman studies, like I remember trillia talking to you about the study in Romans eight when you were writing it, and then Courtney wrote a study on the whole book of Romans. And so for me, this is like selfish Bible study, time with trillia and Courtney. And so if you’re if you’re listening today, I do encourage you open up Romans eight, read it, yeah, as you’re listening along, maybe, maybe even if you’re listening on a podcast somewhere, stop, go Listen to Romans eight and then come back, because I think that’s what we’re going to be in during this conversation. And so I kind of feel like this is like our first little Bible study together on what has been called one of the highlight chapters of the whole Bible, being that there is so much good truth in this chapter, and we get to dig into these rich get mind, these rich jewels, in some sense, in this conversation. So truly. Let me ask you to begin with, what drew you to Romans eight? Why do a Bible study on a on this chapter in the middle of the book?

Trillia Newbell

Yeah, well, you kind of just answered that question for me, because it’s so rich, there’s so much truth in one chapter. And as I have read the book of Romans, I kind of pause and and sit in Romans eight anytime I read it. And Romans, eight is about the Holy Spirit. It’s about suffering. It’s about prayer. It’s about there’s no condemnation, about enduring with the Lord, about God never leaving nor forsaken. There’s so much in there that I thought, wouldn’t it be interesting if we just sat there for six weeks and learned and really dove into the book? Now I am glad that Courtney has written the book for the whole book, because one of the things that I encourage people to do, and I lead them to do is to read the whole book before you sit in Romans eight. I think that’s really important, and so I encourage people to do that. Do use Courtney’s book to go through the whole thing, but then sit there in Romans eight, because there’s so much richness in it. So

Melissa Kruger

yeah, if you’re looking for two studies to do back to back. These would be great. You could just combine them, you know, do the overview, and then dig deep into this one. And I love what you said, you know, this one begins. There is therefore, now no condemnation for those who are in Christ, Jesus. Why is this such a foundational place to begin? Yeah,

Trillia Newbell

well, if you look at Romans. One, the the whole book starts out with the gospel, right? So Romans 116, I’ll just read it. And I would say, and I believe Tim Keller and other scholars would say that this is the theme of Romans, For I am not ashamed of the gospel, for it is the power of God for salvation to everyone who believes to the Jew first, and also to the Greek, for in it, the righteousness of God is revealed from faith. For faith, as it is written, The righteous shall live by faith. And then, if you keep going, you just see Paul writing and helping us understand the gospel. How Jesus. Is the better Adam, how, how we’re to live by the Spirit, how there’s, there’s just one thing after another throughout that we, we, we see the gospel being explained. And so if we, if, if we don’t get that first, we’re not going to understand there’s no condemnation. So we have to understand that, that we have to understand that we are now put right with God through faith and have peace with him. We have to understand that, we have to understand that there is nothing in us that can make us right before the Lord, that God has done that through Jesus, and that we can be alive to Christ. So all of that is in the first seven chapters. That’s right.

Melissa Kruger

That’s right. And Paul does such a wonderful job in Romans. You know, starting with, hey, it’s not, there’s not no condemnation because you’re great. Woman’s one opens up, Nope, you’re not great. There’s not, it’s not that you’re free from condemnation because Abraham was great. No, that didn’t work either, you know? And yet. And then he just, in such a beautiful way, lays out the gospel, and then he he enters with these beautiful words. It’s like this whole turn. Yeah, in case you’re worried, there’s now no condemnation. And so Courtney, let me ask you, for a woman who feels guilt and shame a lot, you know, who’s wrestling with that, how can these words be a real bomb? Because, you know, we can hear it as truly is saying you even just all this beautiful theology that’s laid out in Romans. How does it meet me at my kitchen table when I just yelled at my whole family again and acted like there maybe should be condemnation, or we’re condemning ourselves even Well,

Courtney Doctor

I don’t think we can move past the beautiful theology to get to the balm. I think the balm is found in the beautiful theology. And so just what trilia was saying. So this is the first verse in the eighth chapter. But what Paul has said up until this point is he kind of, yeah, he gave us in 116 and 17, like, this is what I’m going to be talking about. And then it immediately goes into the wrath of God is being revealed against unrighteousness and wickedness. And you’re like, oh. And then he’s like, and you Gentiles are unrighteous and wicked, and you Jews, Jews are unrighteous and wicked, and everybody and you’re supposed to be being like, Okay, well, then the wrath of God is being revealed against those that are unrighteous, that are not right with God, like you said, trillia and so. And then he just like, brings it home in chapter three, and he’s like, no one’s righteous. No, not one like, it’s just like, and so you’re kind of like, oh, well, I’m not, I’m not righteous. I’m not right with God, and the wrath of God is being revealed against those people. So where’s the good news? So it’s a, it’s a legal standing before God. And then in 321 he’s like but now it kills me every time a righteousness from God has been revealed. And it is for you through faith in Christ, like it is the righteousness of Christ. So how did God I mean, it’s it is the dilemma in Scripture. It is the dilemma that the entire story of Scripture is about is that the a righteous God cannot dwell in the midst of the unrighteous, but he longs to dwell with His people, and so he somehow he will never become unrighteous. So he has to make us righteous. And so when he says in Romans, 321, I’ve done that. I have sent my righteous son in whom you can be united and you will be made righteous. That is justification. And so when you get to eight one, and it starts off with with There is therefore now no condemnation. That’s a legal term. That’s an that’s in a court of law, you’re not going to be condemned. You’re not going to stand before the judge if you’re in Christ and be condemned for anything. And so the balm, the comfort, the hope in that is that if I’ve been united to Christ, His perfect righteousness is what is going to be, that what the father sees. And so, so I we really do have to go through the theology of what righteousness and justification and condemnation are to get to this deep truth and balm that we can cling to. So when I remember one of my sons saying to me one time, I was talking talking about kind of my past, before I knew the Lord, and I said, I don’t I, you know, I’m kind of ashamed. I don’t want to talk about it. And he goes, Well, do you not believe Romans eight one? He’s like a teenager at the time that there is therefore, now no condom. And it was, it was life changing for me, that question. It was like, I do actually believe it. And you’re right, there’s freedom. There’s freedom in it. I don’t I, yeah, I am a new creation, and I can stand in that. And so, yeah, I just think that, um. The Balm is so deep, but we have to know why it is. Yes.

Trillia Newbell

Can I add one thing? I would just encourage that person who is sitting at your table and you are full on, condemned one. If we confess our sin, He is faithful and just to forgive us and to purify us. So He is changing us. It’s a good thing that you are recognized when, if, if it’s sin and you, you have not confessed it, confess it before the Lord. Confess it to your friends and repent, turn, change the Lord, He forgives. So one, you don’t have to stand in condemnation and that guilt of sin, if you if that’s what is holding you back from receiving grace, it may be that, no, you just haven’t, you haven’t asked for it, and then the other one is to preach the gospel to yourself. That’s something that Jerry bridges coined, and it’s something that I have had to practice because I had a pass to and the Lord and His kindness and his graciousness early on, when I became a Christian at the age of 22 helped remind me over and over again not to get away from that. Romans one reality like that I’ve been and Ephesians. Two, also that I’ve been saved by faith. It’s not my own doing. It is a gift of God. I cannot boast in myself, but I can cling to the Lord, and I can remind my heart of that. So I do think that if we can get into those practices of repentance and preaching to ourselves, we can sit in that truth that we are declared righteous and we can trust the Lord that he what he says is true, which I think is part of it too. It’s just hard to trust sometimes we have to preach to ourselves,

Melissa Kruger

yeah, yeah. And I think this, the this passage goes on to say, the results of that lack of condemnation means we’re actually not entrapped by sin anymore, you know? And in Romans, one there was no, there’s no freedom. Yeah, I mean, you’re, you’re locked in, in there’s really, this is the way it’s going for you. It’s not just condemnation and God’s wrath. In some sense, you can’t change, right? But now it now there’s a difference, because Paul starts highlighting two ways. There’s a way according to the flesh and life according to the Spirit. So here’s what he says for to set the mind on the flesh is death, yeah, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. So actually here, here’s the good news. Before Christ awakened our hearts, there was no no option, right? I mean, we were dead, is what? Right? I mean, we were not alive. Heart was not leading. Now we’ve been given a new heart. So there, there’s actually a choice to be made. So what does it mean to set our mind on the flesh, or to set our mind on the spirit,

Trillia Newbell

yeah. Well, first we gotta define what in the What is he talking about? What is the flesh and sin? I mean, if I we can say it in one word, sin, selfishness, selfish sufficiency. But Galatians five really sums it up where it talks about the flesh. The works of the flesh are idolatry, with craft, hatred, various emulations, wrath, strife, envy, murder, he just goes on and on his sin and so, okay, I can I give a real practical okay, I wish I could say this has never happened since, but most of my sin is in my mind. It’s it’s not I know how to behave.

Speaker 1

I know what to do. Take You Out, Julia, can’t take you. Can’t take me anywhere

Trillia Newbell

but my mind. It’s where I wrestle with believing the worst in someone. It’s where I wrestle with a lie that that someone’s out to get me, or that I’ve done something wrong, or that, you name it, my mind is where and so for me to set my mind on the flesh, which is typically anything that’s untrue, but like that, is where anything I have to make my mind think true thoughts, that is like a action. So so that it I often when I sin or when I’m asking for forgiveness, it is related to setting my mind on things that aren’t true. So for me to set my mind on the spirit is to remember to set my mind on things that are true, that bring pre peace, which is the spirit, that are lovely. Me that are, you know that are, I’m I’m saying the Scripture, but I can’t think of the verse, But anyway, but you know what I’m saying, and so, so that is, I think, the difference of setting your mind on the flesh, which is sin, and spending your mind on the things that are true and right and righteous, that are God the Spirit, yeah,

Melissa Kruger

yeah, absolutely, and he, he actually points to the Spirit’s power. Yeah, that we have this, the power that raised Christ from the dead. It dwells in us. So Courtney, let me ask you again, sitting at my kitchen table, sometimes we feel completely powerless. Yeah, we hear these things like, there’s no condemnation, okay? And now the Spirit that raised Christ from the dead lives in me. But man, some days, I think we all feel like I got nothing in me to fight, right? I hear what truly is saying about putting my mind on the spirit, but man, the flesh is worn down. Yeah, I’m just thinking about the things of this earth. I’m so, yeah, so how, what does a spirit filled life look like? Keep

Courtney Doctor

the the hymn power, power, wonder working. Power just keeps going through my mind as you were asking that question, I won’t sing it. Nobody wants me to sing it. But yeah, so this particular verse, I mean, is it’s, I mean, the very it says specific, right? The very power that raised Christ from the dead dwells in us. And I think what Paul’s doing here is referencing back to Romans six, where he has an entire pass. Is three passages on the fact that he says, you know you are dead to sin, like you are dead to sin. He says it over and over again, consider yourselves dead to sin. And the the command in that, in that chapter, is not die to sin. That’s already happened. You’ve been he says, you you were crucified, you were buried, and you were raised to new life. And so part of this, like knowing who we are in Christ, is knowing that we have been raised to newness of life. So if we think about the crucifixion and the resurrection, and then we think about that in our own lives, we are called to that life. We are called to what I had a professor call it the heartbeat of the Christian life, meaning it’s boom, boom, boom, boom. And it’s die and live, die and live. And so we die to certain things. We are to crucify the flesh in us. We are to kill sin. We are to put off and take off all these things. That’s all the crucified life. But the resurrection life is that we’re to walk in these new ways, and we’re to walk in the Spirit, and we’re to believe the Word of God that it’s true that we are dead to sin. And so a lot of us have probably heard that. You know, you’ve been delivered from the penalty and the and the power of sin. So the penalty of sin means we’re forgiven. The power of sin means that we are no longer a slave to sin. And then people jump ahead to you will one day be delivered from the presence of sin. But I think we are missing a very significant P word in there, and that is the practice of sin. We have to actively participate in the practice of sin. So he’s delivered us from the power of sin. This is where we get to work out our own sanctification. And I think part of you know repenting and believing, which is the life of a Christian. We might think the life of a Christian is just repenting, but the life of a Christian is repent and believe. And so believe that what God says is true. And he says this the very power, the very power that raised Christ from the dead, dwells in you. If you’re in Christ, back to your point trilia, if you’ve been saved, then to live practically in light of that means that when a temptation comes, I don’t have the option of saying I can’t help it. Now, I do that all the time. I do it all the time. I can’t help it. This is who I am, right? This is who I am.

Melissa Kruger

I can’t can we say this? Like when we’re offered deep dish pizza? Yes, who we are.

Unknown Speaker

I need that goodness,

Courtney Doctor

like, I can’t help it. I’m stressed, I’m this, or I’m that, or, you know, I slander, I gossip, I I rage, whatever, like I can’t help it. Yes, we can, if we’re in Christ, because that’s the power that’s in us. As

Trillia Newbell

you were talking, I couldn’t help but think about Paul, where he says that he’s given us a way of escape. So we have that power. And when I think practically speaking, I think we all know this. For those who know Jesus, I know that we we know when we’re about to do like sometimes, you know, alright, we but you know, like you’re you’re talking to your husband, and you’re like, I could say something biting, or I could say something loving, or I could walk away. We make a choice at a time, and God’s Spirit, He gives us a way of escape. And so the power you were talking about. I believe we need to, and I believe we we need to exercise that muscle where we say no to sin, and I believe he gives us the power to do that. And as you, you mentioned the word sanctification. As we grow more and more like Christ, I have seen that in my own life. I’m not the same 22 year old by the grace of God that I was. And so you start to you build up. You walk in that power more, you know. So anyway, the

Courtney Doctor

grace of God, I love Don Carson’s phrase, that it’s Grace driven effort, even the effort we make, even the fighting that we participate in, is by grace and grace alone. So I’m glad you said that trilia

Melissa Kruger

and the verse Truly is talking about there’s no temptation that has seized you, except what is common to man, I think is one of the most humbling verses, yeah, it goes on to say, and he’s faithful to provide a way out when you are tempted, so that you can stand under it, yeah, but it because I want to believe. No, no, no, no, my temptation is not common. Yeah, Courtney’s is common, she should totally resist. Mine is very special and very hard, extraordinary, yes, yes. So humbling. No temptation has seized you, except what is common to man. Oh, that’s so humbling. It just so that’s

Trillia Newbell

so interesting, Melissa, because I find it as a comfort. This is really because I think, Oh, good. I’m not so like everyone else,

Melissa Kruger

yes, that’s good. You’re

Courtney Doctor

trying to resist it. Trillia, so you’re like, Oh, good. Other people have experienced it and and they have, you know, withstood the temptation. And Melissa’s trying to come. So she’s

Unknown Speaker

special. It’s harder, but

Trillia Newbell

that’s just, I just love, okay, the point is I love this is why it’s so beautiful to read the Bible and community, yeah, because you’re gonna get something different from everyone. It’s so interesting how the Lord illuminates the word to us and says it’s so that, to me, was so fascinating to hear you say that and be like, I’m like, I’ve never read it that one.

Melissa Kruger

I know I do love it. I do love it. Well, I want to move us actually, to this next little section, because I think it’s really interesting. Um, he jumps from Yeah, again, we’ve got no condemnation. We’re talking about the mindset, on the flesh, the mind, so on the spirit. We move into the power that’s at work in us. It’s all this. And then he says this in Romans 818, For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worth comparing to the glory that is to be revealed in us. Okay, I just want to set on this for a minute, because I think that we might be tempted to think that life in Christ, where there’s now no condemnation, would mean a life free of suffering. But Paul’s talking about these two things in the same passage. So how does this passage actually start to help us to understand suffering in the life of a Christian? If there’s no condemnation, why are why are we still suffering? What? What’s going on here? So I’m just gonna toss that hard question to either of you.

Trillia Newbell

Well, I think we’ve both been talking theology, and it’s so funny. So I’ll let Courtney start, but all I could think of is Genesis three, like we live in a fallen world, and so the reality of suffering is the reality of this world and and so we’re, we are going to suffer, and I’m, I think that we have, well, it’s a false gospel if we believe that we’re not going to suffer and that our life in Christ means that it’s going to be perfect, it’s going to be hard, and so and Jesus walked that out. He had a hard life on this earth, and He died, and he rose victorious, and one day it will all be wiped away. But the reality is, we are not there yet. So Courtney, I’d love to hear your thoughts, too.

Courtney Doctor

Oh no, Julia, that’s exactly what I was thinking. It’s like we have to know where we are in the story, and we have not been fully delivered from all of the brokenness of this world. It’s been it’s being redeemed. But even, you know, Paul goes on in these verses to be like, the whole creation is groaning. But the other thing that I think it’s important to talk about in these verses is to say Paul is also not minimizing our suffering. He’s not like, oh, you know, like your sufferings right now, what they’re not even worth comparing because it’s going to be so good in the future. That is not what he’s saying, what he is giving us is this deeply anchored hope in what you just said, trilia, where there will be a time that all of this will be wiped away. And Paul knew suffering. Paul really knew suffering. And so he is saying that what he knows deep in his soul to be true is that one day. Fauci all of this, the intensity of the suffering that we feel will fade. It will so pale in comparison. And I think it’s interesting that he goes on to talk about, like, the groanings and the, you know, the it’s, it’s, it’s labor, it’s like labor and delivery language. And so I think that that’s how we’re supposed to think about this, is that that, you know, whether we’ve birthed babies or not, we understand that there is a painful, painful, painful process that results in something so beautiful that all of the pain and suffering was worth it. And I think that’s what he’s pointing us to here, is that he’s not saying the pain and suffering aren’t real. Yeah. He’s just saying what’s coming is going to be so glorious, yeah.

Trillia Newbell

And Jesus in John, can I read something John 1621, he used the same analogy. So when a woman is giving birth, she has sorrow because her hour has come, but when she has delivered the baby, she no longer remembers the anguish for joy that a human being has been born into the world. So also you have sorrow now, but I will see you again, and your hearts will rejoice, and no one will take your joy from you. I guess I always love that passage that Jesus is saying that our earthly sorrows are temporary. I mean, we are in even, even in childbirth. You’re right. Courtney, not everyone has given birth and will relate to this, but it is a beautiful example of the pain, sorrow, suffering, and then the joy that will one day be revealed that so much of us have experienced in that picture. It just gives a a picture of it. And in my Bible study, I did this chart, and if I could just read, do you mind if I read some of okay? So I compared suffering and glory. So suffering, we suffer because of our own sin, but one day we will be sinless we suffer because of the sin of others. So much of our suffering is brought on because of the sin of others. Evil will be banished, so there will be no more sin we suffer from worry and anxiety. There will be nothing to worry about, and our risen bodies and minds will be sub will no longer be subject to anxiety. We suffer because of sickness. One day there will be no more sickness we suffer from living in a fallen world where we are subject to natural disasters, talking about the Earth growing and all that, there will be a new heaven and a new earth we suffer because of our sorrows, there will be no more tears, and we suffer because of death. And this, to me, means a lot, having experienced a lot of Death, death will be vanquished. And I just he’s not minimizing, but he does point us to something better, and I’m so grateful for that. It brings us hope to keep going. So that’s so

Courtney Doctor

good. Trillia, I love how you hit all the different types of suffering and how every single one of them is going to be banished and redeemed. I mean, praise the Lord, yeah, yeah. That’s really beautiful. What?

Melissa Kruger

And the passage does get there, right? Basically, as we we lead down to that famous passage that so many people know. It’s it’s just taking us there. He’s talking about this. He’s not ignoring the reality of suffering. He Paul has experienced it greatly. We know his story. I mean, you know he talks about being burdened beyond our strength, that they the spirit of life, even itself. He knew suffering. He saw friends die. He, you know, he was physically whipped. He bore the burden of the church, all of these things that he talks about. And then yet, he has the audacity to say, For we know that all things work together for good. I mean, you know, it really is such a bold statement to be able to look at all things and say, God is somehow reigning and ruling in such a way that all things are working together for good. Okay, so let’s take this verse, What is it not mean, and and what does it mean? And how can we apply it faithfully in our lives? I think it’s something that almost, yeah, it’s gotten Jordan to, like the catch all phrase, it’s all good, which I kind of drives me crazy, because I don’t think it’s all good. Yeah. I mean, it’s not that everything is good. It’s being worked for good. So, so let’s unpack this passage, especially as it’s coming out of all of these things. How do we read this and how do we understand it for our lives today?

Trillia Newbell

Yeah, well, I think the false thing I’ll start. The false thing. I think that we typically go straight to our happiness and to our well being, and almost like a money What do you call that? Faith, well, health, wealth, thank you. That’s where. Yeah, I think that’s what we think of. We think of God’s goodness to us must mean that we imagine that he will make our lives easier. Yeah, and, and, I mean, that’s of course we all pray that the Lord will well, he will keep us but that, I don’t know many people who are praying, Lord, help me suffer. And I know that there are, but not help me, but bring me suffering, but, but to work good things, um, really means that that he is, he is working. It’s a spiritual it’s a spiritual good thing. And so he is. He is sanctifying us. He is bringing us closer to him. He is. He’s working all things together for the good of those doesn’t mean that everything that we pray for will happen, but that everything that is best for us will and that is how I have as I’ve studied it, understood it, and I’d love to hear what Courtney has to say.

Courtney Doctor

Oh, I think that’s exactly it. You know that we have to redefine what good is. We have to redefine what our best what what we mean by that or or our we have to align our understanding with God’s understanding of that and and what is good is that I am sanctified through and through first, Thessalonians, four, three, like this. I think this is God’s will for you. You know, your sanctification and and so my greatest good is that my faith would be deeper and so that more often in my life has come through things not going the way I would want them to go. And so I I actually have to look for and reorient not just my definition, but my longings that I would want, that my longings would be more for Christ to be formed in me than my longings would be for my life to become comfy and easy. Now, agree with you, trillia, we don’t ask for suffering it comes. There is nothing wrong with asking for you know, he knows like his blessings are, are the things that we so easily call blessings are. We’re meant to desire those. Nothing wrong with desiring those. But when he says, No, My blessings are going to come this way. You know, it’s the Laura story song, My blessings are going to come this way. Then it’s that. It’s that submission to his goodness in that yeah, and

Trillia Newbell

the surrounding verses are all about that. That’s what they’re about. They’re about our well being in Christ, yeah, and, and so we take, when we take versus outs of the context. We’re going to add all sorts of stuff to it. Melissa, I think you were going to say something,

Melissa Kruger

no, I was just going to say, just jumping off that. I think it’s really tempting as we live life to judge God by the goodness of our circumstances, yeah, but we’re supposed to judge our circumstances by the goodness of our God. And so that’s the key, right? It’s easy to kind of live this life and put God on trial. If you do right by me, then I’ll believe in you. But this passage starts out with he’s already done right by you. Yeah, yeah. So now, can you trust him when you can’t understand him. And, you know, a lot of us are living in worlds we can’t understand what’s going on. You know, there’s suffering. And, I mean, look, you know, truly, you’re talking about death. It’s really hard to stare death in the face and be able to be like, Yeah, this is going to work for good. Like, I don’t care. Oh, I don’t really want this good. Whatever it might be. It’s so tempting to have that response, but, but what if we could say instead? I don’t feel like this is good, but I know it must be good. I know it. I know he will work it for good in my life, so I can trust him there in the darkest of day and the darkest of night this, this is a beacon to us when I can’t see that it’s good, I can trust he’s doing this. But man, best faith, that’s faith in action that is not easy. Believe ism that’s not that’s that’s us taking it to the depths of despair. And so he closes, I’m gonna close with this, yeah, way he gets us there. Because I’m going to read this whole passage from 31 to 38 because I think it’s worth reading. All of this is worth reading or 39 and this is, this is how it ends. What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who can be against us? Because he who did not spare His own Son but gave him up for us all, how he’ll will He not also with Him graciously give us all things Who shall bring any charge against God’s elect? It is God who justifies who? Who is to condemn Jesus Christ is the one who died more than that, who was raised, who’s at the right hand of God, who is indeed interceding for us, Who shall separate us from the love of Christ, so tribulation or distress or persecution or famine or nakedness or danger or sword, as it is written, for your sake, we are being killed all day long. We are regarded as sheep to be slaughtered. Know, in all these things, we are more than conquerors through him who loved us. For I am sure that neither death nor life, nor angels, nor rulers, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor death, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God and Jesus Christ. Christ, Jesus, our Lord. I mean, praise God, that is just wow. Wow. Yeah, I mean words our soul needs to hear so truly. Let me ask this. You know he’s saying God’s already given you his son, right? Can? Can you trust Him, even though we may suffer here, he eventually we know all things are going to come. We’re going to be in a place where suffering is no more. Every tear is wiped away that is coming, um, yet sometimes we still really doubt that God is for us. So what would you say today to someone, to a woman who’s listening, who might be feeling like, I’m just not sure God loves me, yeah? Like, what assurance could you give her, even looking at these verses to remind her now your God loves you this much, right?

Trillia Newbell

You know, in when we are tempted to not think or believe that God loves us, our temptation is to withdraw, to run away. But in these verses and throughout the Scripture, Jesus is always inviting us to himself. Now I’m going to cry. So I would encourage the person who is doubting his love to to run to God and ask Him to help you believe it’s true, because it’s true, but it’s hard if to run, just run to him. He invites us to a throne of grace in our time of need. He draws it near to the brokenhearted. He loves us with a love that is unfathomable and hard to understand. We cannot comprehend it, and the depths of it are too deep for us to ever we’re just we’re never going to get to the bottom of it. It’s just so. So what I would say is that what you’re really struggling with is unbelief, and so, because, if it’s true, you need to ask God to help you to believe, I believe, help my unbelief, and to to keep preaching it to yourself, and not to withdraw, run to Jesus, and who has poured out grace and love and who will never that there’s nothing even your doubt right now cannot separate you from the love of God in Christ, Jesus, amen, for that, amen, pray, run to Him and and ask him to help you to believe it to be true. That’s

Melissa Kruger

so good, that that’s so good. Well, let me throw this one to you. Courtney, how is it a bomb that nothing can separate us from the love of God that is for us in Christ, Jesus. So you know, we have, we have, we may we may doubt it, but how, how can we hold on and cling to that nothing can separate us from His love?

Courtney Doctor

Well, I think that what trilia just said was so beautiful and helpful that it’s that place of believing. It’s that he’s he’s gone so far out of his way to give us His Word and His Spirit, to to tell us these things are true. I mean, even as you started reading, and it’s the title of trillia study, if God is for us, like who can be against us. And then it goes on to the next verse, which is the one that just really kind of change, like people will ask sometimes, after you write a Bible study or a book like, what really stood out to you? And it was Romans 832, for me, that He who did not spare His own Son but graciously gave him up for us, how will He not also with Him, give us all things? And it’s this argument from the greater to the lesser, like he’s already done. He’s done everything, and so like, just back to trillias point. It’s a it’s a belief. And so to look at this chapter, which is why, which is why, you can spend, you can get truly as Bible study, and spend six weeks in this chapter alone, it’s considered the high point of the New Testament, definitely the high point of Paul’s writings, because it is this place where we It starts off with no condemnation. And it ends with no separation. And that’s who we are. In Christ, we are not condemned, and we are not separated. And so we, we live in the middle of Romans, eight. And so if, if you are feeling like your sin or your So, yeah, the things going back to your chart trilia, does our sin separate us? No, he has completely redeemed it in Christ, does our suffering mean? Mean he doesn’t love us? No, even our suffering isn’t going to be compared with the glory that’s to be revealed in us. And does our doubt separate us? No, nothing will set I mean, this whole passage is given to us by God himself to say, you’re so safe like nothing will take you out of my hand, Nothing will separate, nothing will make me pull my love away from you. And so our job is to to sit in it and rest in it and believe it, and drag our souls back to the truth of what Paul is telling us in Romans eight.

Melissa Kruger

I love how you said that drag our souls back. Sometimes we do need that, and I think it’s even better when you can do it around a table with some friends. So we just encourage you get together with some friends and read Romans eight and just go over line by line and do this. I also encourage you. Trulia has a new book out called celebrating around the table, learning the stories of black Christians, the readings fellowship, food and faith. So you could actually grab a copy of that. You could make some of her delicious recipes in there talk about Romans eight, feast on the word together. Feast on a meal together. And really savor these truths together, because there’s much, much to be mined here. And I think, like what Trulia said earlier, when you do it in community, you see things you didn’t see before. God promises His Holy Spirit’s with us all the time, but it’s especially in a unique way with us when we open the Word and study together. But I want to just close with this question for you both, what recipe are you loving right now? So if I was around your table and we could be eating together, what would we be eating on?

Trillia Newbell

Okay, so I love food, and I’m kind of adventurous, and so you would have something probably different every single day, because I cook a lot, and I am I just love it, but you’re gonna laugh. I have two things that I just keep experimenting with. The first one is dates. So dates is a natural sweet, sweet, and so I’m making brownies with dates and fudge with dates, and using all these date recipes and discovering dates, if that’s what you mean, like food, right?

Melissa Kruger

Send me these.

Trillia Newbell

That’s how I use Instagram these days. I’m like, ooh, recipe. Another thing that I’m experiencing, and this is where you would laugh, is cabbage. I love cabbage. Don’t

Melissa Kruger

send me those recipes. I just want the date ones. Don’t send me cabbage ones, fresh tomatoes,

Trillia Newbell

if I had fresh tomato recipes, Melissa, but anyways, so dates and cabbage.

Courtney Doctor

I just need to come eat at your house. You’re anyone’s welcome.

Trillia Newbell

I’d love it.

Melissa Kruger

You’re gonna hear all these, knock, knock, knock, knock, yeah. What about you? Courtney, what are you what recipe?

Courtney Doctor

You know, I’m not, I mean, I’m using this like, you know, I’m not experimenting with anything. I’m not cooking anything. I’ve got this, you know, food that shows up at my house on Mondays that I then make the, you know, follow their little, you know, instruction card or, yeah, I’m barely, I’m I’m barely getting the food on the table.

Speaker 1

But grace, grace, no, condemnation. There’s no condemnation. There’s no condemnation. I have food meal services,

Courtney Doctor

but I feel like the truly, you know, sanctified, spiritual Christian women are the ones who are experimenting with dates and cabbage.

Unknown Speaker

No, I’m just a foodie,

Trillia Newbell

and I’m often, I just love food. You are so funny? Yeah.

Melissa Kruger

Well, I have my mom’s chicken and rice casserole, which sounds so boring, but I really love it, and that’s the one I would have y’all ever to eat with. It’s it’s a good recipe. It’s got enough bad things in it that it makes everything taste really good. My mom uses heaps of butter in everything, and I’m all for it makes everyone happy so Well, friends, thank you. Thank you both for joining us for this conversation, truly, especially you for coming on. Romans eight is so rich. We’re so thankful that all of you who are listening have joined this episode of The. Deep Dish from the gospel coalition. If you found this conversation helpful, we hope you’ll go over and like it and subscribe to it or share a friend or leave a comment, and we just encourage you to support the work of TGC so we can continue to make content like this available. Thanks so much for joining us.